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Race Rule proposed changes – 1 to 8

Home IRF Forums Race Rules – proposed updates 2018/2019 Race Rule proposed changes – 1 to 8

This topic contains 23 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by  Joe 9 months ago.

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  • #19436

    IRF admin
    Keymaster

    1.Remove rule allowing non-regional teams to attend ERC. (from Sue)

    Rule A.2.a.iv states: “Only Teams from the Europe Region will be scored for regional awards or be awarded regional medals.  (Consequently in the H2H discipline, Teams from other Regions should not race against Teams from the Europe Region unless all Member Nations of the Europe Region agree, as this will alter the points for the overall results.)”

    Change to:“Only teams from the Europe Region may enter.”

    Reason: adds complications. Non-regional teams can’t do H2H and must race last at end of DR – so a bit weird and adds complications for the organisers to deal with and confusion for the spectators.

    ___________________________________________________________
    2.Remove word “judging” from post-event protest. (from Sue)

    Rule M. Protests.13 states: “If after an Event has ended, a National Federation wishes the IRF to investigate any part of the race because they believe a judging, procedural or technical error was made, the request must meet the following conditions:”

    Remove the word “judging”.

    Reasons: We do NOT accept protests for judging errors – these must be done during the time period allocated at the event itself. We only accept procedural or technical errors after the event. So it just confuses everyone and wastes a lot of people’s time trying to explain this.

    ___________________________________________________________
    3.Downriver – rafts must stay within course. (from Sue)

    Add Rule E.5.n. “Rafts are to stay within the course defined for the Downriver. Cutting corners or other course markers like buoys will result in a 50 sec penalty for the team.”

    Reason: This is relevant when the course is defined by buoys or other obstacles. No rule states teams must stay within the course, and no rule saying what would happen if they don’t stay within the course. (Incident in WRC 2016 and ERC 2018 where Jury had to make decision to give a teams 50sec penalty due to cutting corners over buoys.)
    ___________________________________________________________
    4.Transgender athletes: (from Sean)

    Add under B. Teams and Competitors: “14. For transgender athletes the IRF follows the IOC Consensus Meeting on Sex Reassignment and Hyperandrogenism (Nov 2015)  //stillmed.olympic.org/Documents/Commissions_PDFfiles/Medical_commission/2015-11_ioc_consensus_meeting_on_sex_reassignment_and_hyperandrogenism-en.pdf

    Reason: to conform with IOC standards.
    ___________________________________________________________
    5.Remove obligation of Captain’s minutes. (from Eric)

    Race Rule F.6.c. states: “Event Organisers are to provide written minutes to all Captains at the end of all Captains Meetings, or as soon after the meeting as possible. Minutes should highlight any important Event details that were discussed during the Captains Meeting, and any deviations or changes from earlier decisions.”

    Change to: “Event Organisers are to reliably inform the teams of any significant changes that take place during the event either electronically or by minutes of captain’s meetings.provide written minutes to all Captains at the end of all Captains Meetings, or as soon after the meeting as possible. Minutes should highlight any important Event details that were discussed during the Captains Meeting, and any deviations or changes from earlier decisions.

    Reason: Events are run much more to the rules and to the proposed schedule these days, so it is not as essential as it was in past. But biggest reasons – it is a big burden for organisers to do and most of the time very few of the captain’s stay to collect them. Important information is passed on now through social media.
    ____________________________________________________________
    6.Mixed gender teams (Sean/BR)

    Rule B.5. states: “Mixed Teams must compete under the Men‘s Category unless a Mixed Team Category exists.”

    Add: “If a Mixed Team Category exists the split must be 50/50 and the reserve must be female OR permit two reserves so that the gender of the athlete being replaced remains the same; and the team cannot race with more than 50% male at any time, but if the team chooses, then they can race with more than 50% female.”

    Reason: Currently these race in OM category but to add the desired option if organisers want to do it to have a mixed gender category – at the discretion of race organiser completely.
    _____________________________________________________________
    7.Course designer duties (from Eric)

    Add to Race Rule K.12 Course Designer.
    “c. The Course Designer is in charge of setting all Starts, Finishes and buoys, including having the H2H start set up in time.

    Reason: it is not clear who is in charge of this often leading it to be not done on time.
    _____________________________________________________________
    8.Drop rule that teams are not allowed to replace paddlers during one discipline. (from Eric)

    Race Rule B.4. states:
    “ONLY the registered Team Members are allowed to compete for a Team. Multiple substitutions are allowed during the Event, however substitutions are not permitted during a single discipline.”

    Remove: “however substitutions are not permitted during a single discipline”

    Change: medal rules in Race Rule O so as to cater for this.

    Reason: This is VERY hard to police at an event. Why do we want to control this? Much easier to just allow them to substitute with their reserve if they want.

  • #19442

    IRF admin
    Keymaster

    From Tim Marshall via email: “I have read through all 8 suggested rule changes, and I am happy with all suggestions.”

  • #19449

    Bert Kanora
    Participant

    Hi All,

    My reaction on the Race Rule Proposal 2018/2019…

    Marked with STAR … Remark to the proposed rule
    Between parenthesis … Agree to the proposed rule

    1*- Why only for ERC in Level-B Events ? And not for Level-C Events
    called EuroCup (Only for Euro region) and WorldCup (Open for Everyone)
    (A.2.a … A.3.c)

    Is also Pan-American, African and Asian-Oceania not ready for a B-Level
    Competition like in Europe ? That the rules are the same for every region ?
    (A.2.b idem A.2.a)

    (2)- Agree … In the Event can the Jury correct the Judging, so no overrule by
    Teams, e.g. a Judge decision after an Event.

    (3)- Agree … Course must be clear indicated and penalty known.

    (4)- Agree … Following the Olympic Standards

    (5)- Agree … Must be traceable what is different from standard rules, so no
    discussion can be made by ignorance or not knowing.

    6*- A mixed team exists of a half men, half women team or a majority of women
    in the team. So the spare partner is always a women (not to break the 50/50 balance
    or majority of the strong gender in the team ?
    R4 is a team with four and one reserve / R6 is a team with six and one reserve
    Two reserves gives problems to Men and Women division (B.4)

    Maybe beter …
    – MAN is all man or majority of man in the team
    – WOMAN is all woman
    – MIXED is 50/50 man,woman in the team or majority of woman in the team
    (B.5)

    (7)- Agree … All Course tasks how effect the race (Start, Finish, Buoys, Gates, e.g.
    are under control of the Course designer not only Slalom (E.4.c) or now also
    Head to Head

    8*- I know the problem (Yushu 2018 – Team Chile OM) … Still a change in a team in the
    same discipline has an influence.

    So … For me, it is still four/six team members and you can make a change between
    disciplines, but not in the same discipline (B.4.c)

    My proposal is: A change in a Team can made by rules B.13 and F.3 in the same
    discipline.

    This has also effect on the Prize Giving (O.5.b) … How gets the Medals (4 for 5
    persons) ? So, no Medals for single disciplines ?

    Cheers,
    Bert Kanora

    Belgian Canoe Federation (KBKV-FRBC)
    and Flanders Canoe Kayak Federation (VKKF)

  • #19455

    IRF admin
    Keymaster

    Hi Bert

    In response to your comment:
    “1*- Why only for ERC in Level-B Events ? And not for Level-C Events
    called EuroCup (Only for Euro region) and WorldCup (Open for Everyone)
    (A.2.a … A.3.c)”

    ERC is really aimed at just European teams and it is nearly at the same level as the WRC. EC and WC and other C-level events are no where near the standard and requirements set down for a ERC event.

    Euro Cup Series is aimed at any and all teams – but only the points from the Euro Cup events are used to define who wins the Euro Cup Series. So any team can win no matter where they are from. Whereas only a team from Europe can with the ERC.

    “Is also Pan-American, African and Asian-Oceania not ready for a B-Level
    Competition like in Europe ? That the rules are the same for every region ?
    (A.2.b idem A.2.a)”

    No, they are nowhere near ready. It is too expensive for those regions to have continental champs because it means an expensive flight for teams to get to the events and already they struggle to afford to get to the WRC. That is why we encourage EC and WC events so the teams in those regions who can afford extra flights (very few of them) can attend event with top teams.

  • #19461

    IRF admin
    Keymaster

    My (SUE) personal response to these proposals are:

    1. to 5. and 7 = Agree

    6. Mixed gender teams -I agree with it. As far as numbers and reserves – I think as Bert says, maybe there should just be 1 reserve and it must be a women. Keeps the reserve option 1 which is the same as the other gender divisions.

    8. I’m half / half with this – I see the problems that the Judges have to try check that the same 4 paddlers are racing each time, but I also see that allowing them to interchange gives the teams with reserves a bigger advantage.

    • This reply was modified 10 months, 1 week ago by  IRF admin.
  • #19465

    Rado Orokoky
    Participant

    Hi,

    I agree with 2. to 8. except 1 and 6.
    1. I agree with Bert.
    6. If I good understand only team 50/50 is mixed and will start under men category. If yes I vote against this proposal. For me is mixed team if at least one person in the team is opposite gender.

    Rado Orokocky

  • #19466

    IRF admin
    Keymaster

    From Kianoosh via email:

    “1-      I agree

    2-      I agree

    3-      I agree

    4-      I agree

    5-      I agree

    6-      I agree as follow:

    Mixed teams: R4- Maximum 2 men and R6- Maximum 3 men

    7-      I agree

    8-      I am half/half

    The team which substitutes during a single discipline has advantage. Yes, so all teams may want to use this advantage.

    I recommend testing it in an event and seeing how it works.”

  • #19473

    Eric
    Participant

    Hi Everyone,

    1- I see this as an Euro issue but i always felt that more is better and for an organizer that works hard you are happy to get teams from all over the world…before racing day everyone has the same chance…as an example if a north american team wants to invest and go and race a few EC why not let them do it..so i disagree.
    6- i would go with the same idea as Rado..minimum one of the other gender in the boat during the races…keep it simple..

    I am ok as it is with all other proposals…Guys.don’t forget we are not voting athis moment…just giving comments…

  • #19475

    IRF admin
    Keymaster

    From Pieter via email:

    “1. Agree
    2. Agree
    3. Agree
    4. Agree
    5. Agree
    6. 1 Opposite gender in the boot, it is Open Men, make it simple
    7. Agree
    8. Agree, to difficult and much work with controls, one always has to check consistently !!!”

  • #19478

    Goran Lolic
    Participant

    Hi All,

    I am OK with all suggestions and proposals.

    Cheers
    Goran

  • #19482

    Sean
    Moderator

    1) prefer the option for non-Euro teams to be able to race – gives both those teams and the Euro teams the potential to see how they compare to the rest of the world pre-Worlds
    2) agree
    3) agree
    4) agree
    5) agree
    6) agree – I like the simplifications proposed by having maximum ratios rather than two reserves – keeps it simple
    7) agree
    8) agree in principle but it does need testing at an event – not all teams can afford to send a reserve

  • #20076

    Sean
    Moderator

    Email from Fredi (Australia):
    I have read thru all changes …they seem pretty straight forward. Agree with all rules changes.

  • #20108

    IRF admin
    Keymaster

    From Jozef via email:

    “I agree with proposed changes 1 – 8”

  • #20116

    Johana
    Participant

    Hello all
    1- Agree with Eric
    2 – 5 Agree
    6- Agree with Rado
    7 – 8 Agree

  • #20237

    John Anicito
    Participant

    Hello,
    1. I’m a bit hesitant to agree with this one because its good to have another high level event for teams to attend but with the EC and WC open to all teams, ok.
    2-7 agree.
    8. Disagree…just because its hard to judge shouldn’t mean we remove it. It seems to be an advantage for those teams with alternates.

  • #20282

    Martin Prochazka
    Participant

    Hello all,

    I agree with 1,2,3,4,5,7,8. At the proposal 6 I agree with Rado notes.

    Martin

  • #20286

    Stan Hajeks
    Participant

    Cheers rafters,
    I agree with the explaining from Rado Orokocky:

    I agree with 2. to 8. except 1 and 6.
    1. It is good for all of the “continental championships” not for European country only. European cup is on level “C” and is grounded basicly for support of organizer, not for a challenge. Acording thid reason can start In European cups series the teams from Japan, Brazil, USA and so.
    6. If I good understand only team 50/50 is mixed and will start under men category. If yes I vote against this proposal. For me is mixed team if at least one person in the team is opposite gender.This is the rule of the Czech rafting.
    Cheers
    Stan

  • #20358

    IRF admin
    Keymaster

    After reading everyone’s responses I feel that:

    1. I’d be happy to drop my proposals for this and leave it as is.

    6. Mixed Category may be what we have to have for Olympics one day, and I feel that just having 1 female in the team is like a token, not serious. I feel that there should be 2 females in the team minimum for a specific Mixed category if proposed by organisers..

    8. I understand that it is hard to Judge, but I think we should leave the rule as is and work out a better way to manage this.

  • #20370

    IRF admin
    Keymaster

    From Gunther via email:

    “1. First, if the rule is changed it would be for all the regional ones, not just the European region.
    – It would be necessary to see if for the organizers it is a problem or not. Able that with more information the spectators understand it.
    – My vote is not to change it. Encourage teams to travel, to have more teams in the competition.

    2. Agree

    3. Agree

    4. Agree

    5. Agree

    6. I understand that there should be a minimum amount of equipment to open this category. Clarify in the inscriptions that if there is not that minimum amount of equipment, they will compete in OM. If is like that, I agree.

    7. Agree

    8. I do not agree. It is not that there are judges to control this? In a head to head, that there are too many races, teams with substitutes will have an advantage over the rest.”

    • This reply was modified 9 months ago by  IRF admin.
  • #20373

    IRF admin
    Keymaster

    From Taku:

    “I agree with No 1 to 8.”

  • #20422

    IRF admin
    Keymaster

    From Peter via email:

    1. No
    2. OK
    3. VERY OK – I REMEMBER WRC 2007WHEN JAPAN JUMPED OUT OF THE BOAT AN RAN
    4. OK
    5. OK AGREE – BUT HOW DO TEAMS KNOW WHERE TO LOOK IT UP? FB? OR ROUNDMAIL ON WHATSAPP? AS IT SHOULD BE KEPT WITHIN THE RACERS I WOULD PREFER WHATSAPP OR SIMILAR
    6. OK
    7. OK
    8. OK – THIS MEANS AT ANY STAGE OF THE H2H WE CAN SWOP PADDLERS: IN RESULT WE HAVE 5/7 ON THE PODIUM IN H2H AS WE ONLY WANTED TO HAVE FOR OVERALL. 4/6 ON THE PODIUM FOR ALL DISCIPLINES AND 5/7 OVERALL: COUNT FOR THE MEDALS!

  • #20423

    IRF admin
    Keymaster

    Peter –

    5. It would be made very clear at the start where they would find it. Usually on FB, but Whatsapp may also be used – whatever works the best at the time.

    8. No, you would not be able to change paddlers at any stage – just between runs or disciplines, not during the actual race. And also for Slalom then. Yes, this would then add to the number of medals that have to be made, even though some teams would only have 4 or 6 anyway.

    • This reply was modified 9 months ago by  IRF admin.
  • #20428

    Aleksey
    Participant

    1. I agree
    2. I agree, maybe this is correct. But I think that there should be a moment that speaks about the work of the special commission of the IRF in case of considering possible mistakes of the main judge. Any national federation that is a full member of the IRF should be able to pursue such cases.
    3-4-5-6-7 Agree.
    8. I do not agree. I think that changing an athlete for one discipline is not allowed. To replace an athlete, you must perform certain actions

  • #20443

    Joe
    Keymaster

    1. I disagree.

    ‘Guest’ teams are interesting for regional spectators to see, allow these ‘guest’ teams to have more opportunities to compete, and allow regional teams to race against non-regional teams in preparation for world championships.

    Rather than create a rule that strictly disallows a team from outside of the region to compete, I believe this decision should rest with the organiser and/or the continental committee depending on the event circumstances – with the caveat that the scores of non-regional teams must not affect the scores of regional teams in a regional competition.

    2-5. Agree for the reasons stated.

    6. I agree with this proposal, but with change in the wording for simplification and clarity.

    “Mixed Teams must compete under the Men‘s Category unless a Mixed Team Category exists.”

    Add: “If a Mixed Team Category exists, a team cannot exceed a 50% male ratio in the raft.” For reserves, this means the team will have to decide on which gender the reserve should be to ensure that they don’t exceed the 50% male ratio.

    7. Agree for the reasons stated.

    8. Agree with this in principle for the reasons given, but with the caveat that paddlers cannot change while the race is underway (for example during the DR).

    This will give teams that have a reserve an advantage over teams that do not, however this change will also strengthen the argument that all teams should have a reserve which we strongly recommend anyway.

    I do not agree that we need to offer more medals because of this… as this is an elective decision by the team whether to change or not. Organisers should not be expected to have more medals on hand ‘just in case’ a team decides to do this.

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